This opinion is mine and mine alone. This opinion in no way reflects the opinions of the other people that contribute to AH!
It seems there are two types of Twins blogs these days. There are ones like Gleeman, SethSpeaks, TwinkieTown and Nick and Nick. They tend to use statistics and other (some times) conventional wisdom to discuss the current issues the ball club is facing. Gleeman sometimes adds his love for crappy pop music and the women that grace Maxim and FHM covers. But whatever.
Then there are the blogs that focus on the cuteness and rear ends of the Minnesota nine. It's Those Girls, Lipgloss, OMG and Twin Sisters tend to fall into this category.
Now many of you are probably wondering what my point is. Well, I am glad you asked. Here is the point: These two types of blogs have been at odds for most of the season. Maybe not overtly but believe me it's been going on for a while.
The first group (both writers and commenters) tend to write about ideas and moves that they think would help the Twins. While, the second group of blogs have been saying all of the first group's posts and comments are all doom and gloom. Both groups like the Minnesota Twins, I would even go as far as say they are fans of the Minnesota Twins. But they're two distinct groups, one looksat statistics, history and other factors and hypothesizing as to how to improve the Twins chances of succeeding in the future. The other likes to talk about the Twins in the past, or at least the present for the most part.
Typical responses to the same issues:
First Group: Livan Hernandez should be out of the rotation. His ERA is 5.31 and his WHIP is 1.60.
Second Group: But he has 10 wins.
First Group: Carlos Gomez is not a good lead off hitter when gets on base less than 29% of the time.
Second Group: But he is so fast.
First Group: (Before he learned to hit) Punto shouldn't be an everyday starter.
Second Group: But he is so good at defense.
My point isn't that either group is right or wrong and I find both types of blogs to be entertaining and I read all of them daily (or as often as they post). But my issue is of late, that the second group of blogs and people like them often complain that the first group aren't Twins Fans. Because they don't agree/like everything the Twins do, that means they are not true fans. Part of being a fan (even though it's not directly expressed in any definition) is always thinking you could do a better job at running the team. Some of the best fans live and die by the decisions their team makes and they always have an opinion. And that's what makes being a.... ah, shit. I should probably stop before I piss off any more people.
If you are wondering, this is what inspired me to write this.
Any complaints or compliments in the comments section would be appreciated.
Wednesday, July 30, 2008
Not Making Friends Today
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24 comments:
Two things to keep in mind:
1) Having a balance of opinions with a variety of view points is a good thing. Baseball is the greatest game in the world and should be enjoyed by all different kinds of fans.
2) The bloggers in the second group aren't nearly as ditzy and silly as you make them sound. Just because one is able/willing to throw around stats and numbers doesn't mean one is smarter (conventional wisdom) or a better fan.
k-bro
I was worried it would come off that way and that really wasn't my intention. I would say that all of the blogs in the second group come off as much less ditzy than AG's Friday Links often are.
I agree that numbers doesn't mean that a writer is smarter or a better fan, but when some one says they don't want a player in the line up for reason A, B and C. That doesn't mean they don't like the Twins and are being simply "too negative."
And up until this point no one has ever criticized the opinions of the second group of blogs, where as I have been reading over and over again comments and posts criticizing legitimated discussion on a player not deserving a starting position.
But I do appreciated the comment and when I get more time, I will revisit this issue to make sure my point comes across better.
Please do clarify your opinions because your profile of bloggers in the second group suggests they are simpletons, non-analytic thinkers and overly-idealistic.
Not to mention you sound really condescending (not to be all "doom and gloom").
And also, the 4 blogs you single out as being in the second group are all written by females, so I'm not sure what you want to do with that.
I would like to add that in order to be a Twins fan, you must appreciate all the other Twins fans. After all, the fans can make or break a team and the more support (in whatever form it comes) the better.
Honestly, as someone who doesn't actually know you guys but reads the blog (I was sent here by Howard Sinker's a long time ago and now you are on my everyday reading list) I am going to look at both sides. One, I understand what you are saying. I read that Katie girl's post and al the comment. I get it. But honestly, I am really disappointed. And the worst part is that I like your posts the most of everyone's. But you come off sounding like a huge condescending jerk who doesn't like women. Don't read the posts everyday if it bothers you so much. And two, just because they choose to write about "rear ends of the hometown nine" doesn't mean they don't know that Gomez is an awful leadoff hitter. Would you talk shit about Batgirl? Guarantee not.
oooh. a little controversy. I love it. Sometimes I forget that there are more than like 15 guys that read this blog.
I like a good stat now and then, but honestly most of the time I just skip over blog post that get all SABRy. If Gleeman made up a stat would anyone even notice? He could write: "Punto's WBasQ was 1.98 which ranks 28 amongst all qualifying AL third basemen." Maybe some would, but I wouldn't spend the time to find out what WBasQ was...I guess I'm not sure where I am going with this.
I don't think I have been to any of the First Group blogs until now. So, I don't really have an opinion about them, but I get your general point. The commenter Tammy from the link that inspired this post...I don't think she's real. I think it's very well done satire.
How is AH! perceived by the rest of the Twin's blogosphere I wonder?
WV, I'd be lying if I said that it's the first time I have been called a "condescending jerk". And I'd be lying if I wasn't at least trying to stir the pot a bit with this post. But it's because I have been reading a lot of these blogs, and occasionally I'll comment about how I think we need to get rid of Bass, or Boof or whoever, and by ridiculed by the commentators about how I am too negative.
As for them being simpletons, non-analytic thinkers and overly-idealistic.
I don't think that the writers are any of these things. Hell, they could write circles around me. They are clever, witty, intelligent to say the least. But I would say that I do think they tend to be overly-idealistic and non-analytic but I think that's part of the point. Just like we here at AH! tend to be non-analytic and overly pessimistic. It's our niche (a niche with 6 readers, but a niche none-the-less).
If I had to categorize AH! we would be in the second group. We don't use statistics and we tend to talk about the rear-ends of some of the twins (like how Boof's is huge).
Yes, the last group is all females, because of the blogs I read , that's how the line seems to run. Call me sexist if you want, but, now that I will read PAB, I would add you into the second group along with AH... do you disagree with that characterization?
I'd rather have sex with the second group of bloggers than the first group. Second group wins.
well put wuters. well put.
Very interesting. I don't put stats in my blog because I suck at interpreting them, but I know what they mean. I understand a lower WHIP is good for a pitcher, I know Livan gives up too many hits, and I know we're all better off if Go Go bats ninth.
Reading Gleeman sometimes makes my eyes glaze over because it's so stat heavy. It's not that he's all doom & gloom, it's more that he doesn't seem to have fun with the game. Baseball is fun, people! I do like Nick & Nick's blog because I can tell they have fun watching the Twins.
Some of us in Group B get frustrated when the Twins suck it up, by the way. We just choose to express it differently.
I always like reading AH! because you guys all make me laugh. You don't really fall into group A or group B.
Finally, I know you didn't MEAN to make all of us in Group B come off as ditzy, but it did kind of come across that way. 'Cause I gotta tell you, I'm pretty freakin' smart and not at all ditzy.
Man. My first comment was not as articulate as I wanted it to be. I resent the implication that we don't understand the game just because we're not stat geeks.
Hey, I appreciate being hyperlinked (thy name is free advertising) but what’s the deal with airing your grievances over one specific person/item/topic and putting me under that umbrella (ella ella eh, eh)?
Jen
That's a good point. I tried to find some specific examples in all the blogs I linked too. (because I guess thats how you win arguments... I'm trying to man up) But all of them came from Those Girls.
"Nick Punto....is bashed repeatedly and tirelessly by so-called "fans."
"Oddly enough [the definition of fan]says NOTHING about people who complain bitterly and constantly about a team and/or its players. Weird, right?"
"I think most readers know by now that anything I say comes from a place of genuine, all-consuming, love and devotion to the team and its genuine fans."
"Hey, 'Daymonster' our blog is all about showing the Twins some love so keep your negativity on your own blog."
I'm sorry if I lumped you in a category, but at least you got a good post out of it.
so, basically you are upset because some girls called you a "fan" and so you decided to make a way bigger deal about it than is entirely necessary? way to go, fight the good fight, man.
I was just interested that you assumed that she was talking about you. When I read "It's Those Girls" blog, I was assuming that she was talking about many of those commenters at the Strib, or other similar ignorant posters. The fact that you automatically thought it was directed at you was rather interesting.
As an FYI, I am a guy who plays fantasy baseball and works as a stat guy, and I enjoy many of the Twins bloggers in both of these "groups".
I'm a new to Those Girls, and I usually remain a phantom reader of blogs, but I have to say your narrow definition of what a fan is irks me.
I don't regularly question management's decisions and by no means do I think I could "do a better job running the team."
You're right, there are two types of fans. Those that think they could do a better job, and those, myself included, who define being a fan as having a little faith and cheering like hell.
I'm not saying either way is better, but I've taken to avoiding ESPN, Reusse and Hartman as examples of the former, and was ECSTATIC to finally find Those Girls as an example of the latter.
I must say (and this will be the one and only time I read or comment on your blog) that you really probably alienated more people than you expected to.
As you admitted, your points weren't well-defined, your argument wasn't clear and you ended up attacking people with whom you had no grievance.
I never said Livan should be a starting pitcher. Good GOD I wish he wasn't. I merely pointed out the fact that he had 10 wins and (at the time I was thinking of) had a possibility of reaching 20. But, he flat out sucks and without 10 runs of support, he just can't win.
Punto is a great defensive player and we haven't had a consistent batter to replace him. Or, the ones we have had don't have anywhere near the defensive capabilities he has. (Mike Lamb anyone?)
Those Girls and others like them use personal observation, instincts and feelings and express their OPINIONS of what they like, dislike and say what they hope the Twins do as a result.
The analytical sites have their uses, but to readers like myself, don't offer much to get involved with. The calculations are already made, it's so cut and dry that it leaves nothing to the imagination. That's what these other sites offer. Imagination, opinion, a way for people to express themselves and have fun while doing so. There's nothing wrong with it. In fact, every great newspaper has a section dedicated to it, called the Op/Ed. We discuss, argue, agree or disagree but we all understand that it's just a bunch of people who have no authority in the actual runnings of the team to say what we think. Nothing more needs to be said.
Hmm...I'm not quite sure where to begin. I guess I should fess up and admit to being a member of that second group...a female baseball blogger. Actually I started my blog with my husband, but he rarely writes (www.curlzandcurveballs.blogspot.com)
Just because I don't write about the Twins from a statistical stance doesn't mean I don't understand the game or track statistics. Actually I'm the person at work that folks go to to get a run-down of the team. But it's not how I approach the game. I'm passionate about the game. I whoop and holler through every game. I choose to watch Twins baseball over anything else--all season long. I write about what excites me. Statistics are great and important to look at, but they aren't what get me jumping up and down.
Baseball is claimed by many--including a great number of men--to be a slow, boring game. I know that's a bunch of crap. I'm the type of baseball fan that gets goosebumps when I recount Morneau hitting his 30th homerun (for the first time) or Santana getting 17 strikeouts in a game.
My husband and I met because of baseball. He was pretty excited to find a woman that was as much as a baseball fan as he is. And one of the most exciting moments in my life came when he proposed to me...on the Jumbotron at a Twins game. Yup, I know it's sappy...but baseball means more to me than just a bunch of statistics.
So no, I'm not going to apologize for not talking stats on my blog. I'm going to keep on talking baseball...from my perspective.
If that bothers you, if that leaves you feeling that I'm less of a baseball fan/atic, I have one piece of advice for you--don't read it.
Jeremiah and Curlz,
Daymonster never said that blogs that use frequently use stats are better than blogs that don't. AH! obviously doesn't use many stats.
As an FYI, I am a guy who plays fantasy baseball and works as a stat guy, and I enjoy many of the Twins bloggers in both of these "groups".
Me too, I said it right in the post.
so, basically you are upset because some girls called you a "fan" and so you decided to make a way bigger deal about it than is entirely necessary? way to go, fight the good fight, man.
Yep, basically. Thanks for your support. It means a lot.
I'm a new to Those Girls, and I usually remain a phantom reader of blogs, but I have to say your narrow definition of what a fan is irks me.
My point was that I thought other people (mostly THOSE GIRLS) had a narrow definition of a fan. Those that are fans and those that are "fans". But I guess that was lost on you.
I must say (and this will be the one and only time I read or comment on your blog) that you really probably alienated more people than you expected to.
I'm sorry to see you go Jeremiah. I will personally send you a check to reimburse you. But if you hate me to much don't punish other good writers, like Haasertime, and TW83.
Just because I don't write about the Twins from a statistical stance doesn't mean I don't understand the game or track statistics.
I agree.
Simply put, you categorized bloggers based on gender. It may not have been your intent, but it was how your message came across. The sad truth is that "girl bloggers" have to fight harder to be considered legitimate and your comments stung. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think that you went off-point by pointing out "girl bloggers".
"My point was that I thought other people (mostly THOSE GIRLS) had a narrow definition of a fan. Those that are fans and those that are "fans". But I guess that was lost on you."
You are correct. That finer point of your discourse was lost on the reader when you offered up your own, and equally, narrow definition of fan.
(e.g. Part of being a fan is always thinking you could do a better job at running the team.)
MY point, hopefully more clearly written this time, is that, while your complaint may be valid, there is no need for you to force your definition on the rest of us, whether that was your intent or not.
Curlz, what's your definition of a legitimate blog?
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